Obama At Notre Dame
By now, we all know about President Obama’s visit to Notre Dame. It was filled with controversy for Christians and especially for Catholics. Please! Get real! I have 2 quick observations:
First, I find it fascinating that the Republican party – the party that prides itself on less regulation and more personal responsibility – is so determined to pursue Constitutional Amendments against gay marriage and abortion. Whatever happened to leaving regulations to the States? Whatever happened to leaving personal matters to individuals’ decisions? Clearly, all that big talk apply only if they agree with your religious views and political agendas.
Second, let’s assume abortion is killing a living baby. I can truly accept and, in a way, believe that. Now, some one tell me how abortion can be viewed as a much worse act than killing a living person. Remember the 10 Commandments? Remember the sixth one: thou shalt not murder? No where does it say thou shalt not murder only the unborn.
I find it absolutely hypocritical that most Christians who are so against abortion are precisely the same individuals whose core ideology is the same as that of Rush Limbaugh’s and Dick Cheney’s. The same ideology that merits we (the U.S.) are the king of the world, we should govern the world and protect ourselves at any cost, and if some innocent lives are lost in the process, so be it. Every time we drop bombs and rockets to kill terrorists, we inevitably kill some innocent by-standards in the process. Some of those innocent souls are children, newborns and even unborn. Therefore, we are violating the sixth commandment. Where’s the outrage? Where are the protests?
In no way am I suggesting that we should not fiercely protect ourselves or avoid pre-emptive strikes. And I’m not so naive to think that we can do all that with no non-military casualties. But then I don’t have an existential crisis, and I’m not hypocritically against abortion while practically supporting the deaths of unborn and pregnant women in war. That is not for me to resolve. Those of you Christians who are against abortion and thought Obama’s visit to Notre Dame was an abomination must work this out between yourselves and your God. And be careful what conclusion you reach. If you believe that God agrees with your views and supports your plan, you have reached the wrong conclusion. It should be exactly the opposite!
Eternal damnation is not just for those who support or perform abortion. It is also for those who violate the sixth commandment. That could be you. Think about it.
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May 18, 2009 at 10:44 am |
[...] he has advocated are, too. Obama did not become president because voters supported his positions Christian Hypocricy In Light Of Obama’s Notre Dame Commencement Address – logicalcomplexinfinitive.wordpress.com 05/18/2009 Obama At Notre Dame By now, we all know [...]
May 19, 2009 at 12:17 pm |
Same basic response — or at least approach (separation of Church and State). The big difference is the personal approach that I take is more evident I believe: I am pro-choice, but if faced with the choice, I believe I would go through with birth, and not advocate abortion. A lot of people would argue with the approach as a whole, and everybody else will probably argue against one or the other; I think there is a very, very small minority that see it the way I do. And basically the reasoning is at least two-fold: one, I like to believe I would never be in a situation that involved the ’should I’ or ’should i not’ question; and second, it really is the separation of church and state on some level. It is very possible (actually probable) that I don’t believe I would advocate abortion because of my faith and the way I was raised, but that doesn’t make me believe everybody should see it the same way I do (that would be great, but unrealistic).
As another example: I voted against the Ohio state-wide smoking ban (and the local ones too), even though I don’t smoke. I actually like the fact I don’t have to change immediately after being in a bar because of the smell of smoke now, but I don’t think—or believe—that the issue should be something that I’m force fed.
May 19, 2009 at 2:41 pm |
I hope you don’t mind but this is such a good argument, I am gonna copy and paste it onto my blog. I will of course give complete credit
May 19, 2009 at 3:34 pm |
Terra,
No problem. Go ahead. It’s totally fine.
May 20, 2009 at 3:18 pm |
There is absolutely no question that abortions kill living babies. There is nothing to assume; the baby is alive in the womb and is deliberately killed. A civilian casualty suffered from an American airstrike on terrorists is not even remotely close to the same thing.
The men and women of our armed forces do not deliberately kill civilians and they take every precaution to avoid doing so. It is not legal for a soldier to deliberately kill a civilian but it is legal for a mother to kill her unborn baby for any reason. Doesn’t sound the same to me.
The sixth commandment (fifth in Catholicism) is “ratsach.” It is properly translated as “murder.” “Thou shall not murder.” The Catholics loosely translate it as “kill,” but every Old Testament reference for the word relates to unjust killing. Ratsach is never used in reference to the taking of life in war. Therefore, the commandment applies to abortion but not to war.
Why do you accuse Christians of being hypocritical for protesting abortions and not the war, but you do not accuse antiwar activists of being hypocritical for protesting war and not abortions? Do you have an anti-Christian agenda?
May 21, 2009 at 10:20 am |
Onefold,
It’s always a pleasure to have your opinion on a religion-related post.
And I always know my argument is substantive when the other side accusses me of the opposite of what I accused them in the first place. You wrote: “Do you have an anti-Christian agenda?” Gee, whatever happened to the Christian mantra of ‘judge not lest ye be judged’? Either you were absent the day it was taught or, as is seemingly the case with many christian creeds, judge not is somewhat optional. You just proved it. Do not ass-ume you know my views. I am equally critical of those who believe abortion is not ending a life. The point of this post was to counter all the Christian outcry related to Obama’s visit. Judge (or assume) not please! God is watching. Remember?
So you just convinced yourself that ‘thou shalt not murder/kill’ is really ‘thou shalt not kill unjustly’, and it doesn’t apply to war. Congratulations! I’m amused by how christians can manipulate and dissect what they don’t like of the scripture and other things based on context and translation. At the same time, however, the literal interpretation of the Genesis could not possibly be wrong. Every single word in it is EXACTLY as it’s written, and there’s no need to put it in any logical or contextual perspective. I’ve read Genesis carefully many times by the way, and I’m convinced that all satellites orbiting the earth do so in a body of water. Genesis says so – literally. But I digress.
In terms of war, we all respect our military personnel and appreciate what they do for us. Disagreeing with war does not imply disrespect for the men and women of our armed forces. Get over it. But it does mean you’re wrong. The premise of your argument is that because innocent lives are lost in a passive manner in war, then it doesn’t count – or count as much. I’m glad you can convince yourself of that. I don’t think you can sell it to God though. If we are his most brilliant creation, then we don’t get a free pass. He bestowed the gift of intelligence upon us for a reason: to use it in ambiguous situations. Military strikes ALWAYS carry the potential loss of innocent lives no matter how carefully planned and executed. That fact, by itself, removes the passiveness card out of unjust killing of unsuspecting innocent people. Therefore, you do not get a free pass in war. Killing is killing, no matter how you try to justify it.
May 21, 2009 at 3:50 pm |
Why is it that Christians cannot defend their views without having “Judge not lest ye be judged” thrown at them? Did I condemn you to hell? No, I asked a legitimate question that you, by the way, did not answer. As a Christian I have every right to criticize writings that misrepresent our faith.
It is very clear from both the Old and New Testaments that the commandment refers to murder, not unintended killing. With all due respect, you don’t know what you are talking about.
May 21, 2009 at 11:00 pm |
oh i like this topic jmjorat. Strangely enough I was having this exact discussion with someone i know. I also have an issue with fellow Christians who distort the Bible translations to justify, in particular, governments who push certain religious agenda’s in a hipocratic way.
My view on the matter are that the Bible teaches us what God says is wrong in his eyes, Murder, Adultery, etc etc. The Bible does NOT tell us to make judgement, damn and condemn others for NOT following God’s laws. The act of sin is abhorent to God…NOT the person, that is why we are all called to salvation. Onefold can you see the distinction?
Protesting, attacking, threating, controlling others because they do not follow your thoughts and believes, do you not see that is contrary to “love thy neighbour” and “love one another as I have loved you”. The acts of such things are wrong before God’s eyes, each of us will be held accountable for our sins but WE are NOT God and therefore NOT our place to judge those chose through God-given FREEWILL choose particular paths of life. Jesus did NOT allow the stoning of the lady of the night and instead stood before the crowd and said that he who is free of sin cast the first stone.
Onefold – no one is saying you cannot voice your opinions or thoughts on topics , however, the act of judgement, the act of acting as God in judgement of others and acting a hateful way against your brethren, making up rules such as “unjust killing” to hide from the truth that is “though shall not commit murder”, that I believe, is misguided thought.
I feel that Onefold is very misguided. This kind of hypocrisy in all religions such as Islam, Christianity, Judaism you name it, is one of the biggest causes for war and killing of innocent people. War is wrong. The US and its allies bombing civilian cities and towns and killing children, pregnant women, men etc who are not combatants is NOT justified Onefold. You tell me honestly that if a bomb hit your house while your family was in it and they all died you would sit there and still shout out “its not murder, its fine, nothign to see here people.. it is justifiable killing of my family because its war. Oh well, OOPS” I dont think so.
By the reaction of the American people to an attack such as 911 and the calls for war against the perpetrators to kill them all women, men children everything doesnt that show you that they (the IRaqis etc) are reacting in the same way when their homes, famly and children are been destroyed on daily basis?
Onefold my friend – I hope one day you are able to have a clearer view of things. Now back to the topic on hand. I personally am against abortion, however, who am I to judge others who do this? If you are an anti-war protestor then you should protest against ANY act by ANYONE who takes life away so I do think those people, religious or not, are also hypocritical. I do not believe that jmjorat has an anti-christian agenda, I am greatful that he is highlighting one obvious obstacle and great flaw that exists where Christians are activitly wanting to convert others to our belief yet do not represent the beauty, the love, the respect and non-judgemental that the faith demands.
For example, please Onefold, tell me explain to me justify to me why someone like Rev. Pat Robertson’s Christian Coalition, and others like the Missipi based American Family Association and James Dobson’s Focus on the Family group came together to form and launch the Anti-homosexual network??? they are afraid that humanity doesnt want to kill and hurt gay people? As a Christian to a fellow Christian please explain to me how this type of behavious is conducive to attracting others into the faith? please explain to me how this is acting ina Godly manner? please explain to me how this example and others like radical dangerous anti-abortion groups are justified in the horrible things they do? please explain…
May 21, 2009 at 11:13 pm |
Susi Spice – Nicely Said . . .
May 22, 2009 at 7:00 am |
Onefold,
Thanks for the great discussion.
Why is it that Christians cannot defend their views without having “Judge not lest ye be judged” thrown at them? Simple! “JUdge not” is a Christian requirement. I’m not a Christian. I don’t have to abide by it. You do. And when you don’t (just as you didn’t in your previous comment), you demonstrate inconsistency in your approach and faith. You show that there are simple rules in your religion that you consider optional. By the tone of your question, it seems that you’re not very fond of this mantra at all. Gee, too bad.
You may be right. I may not know what I’m talking about, but it’s clear that you really don’t either. I did answer your question, you just can’t receive the information.
Of course, the commandments are referring to unintended killing. Thank you for explaining the obvious. I don’t need a biblical reference to understand that. The simple point that you just cannot accept is that it is no longer unintended killing when our intelligence tells us that the likelihood is very high. Blowing up a building occupied by terrorists and civilians surely is likely to also kill the civilians. The free pass of unintended killing can no longer be applied. A drunk driver does not set out to kill. He just wants to get home. Our intelligence tells us that it is very likely for him to kill. The free pass of unintended killing in this case must be revoked.
BTW, time for you to educate me. In the eyes of Christianity, is the drunk driver’s ‘unintended killing’ of one person murder since any 10 year-old could have predicted it? What if he killed a bus-full of people ‘unintentionally’? Is that a bigger crime?
May 22, 2009 at 10:31 pm |
SS:
I am greatful that he is highlighting one obvious obstacle and great flaw that exists where Christians are activitly wanting to convert others to our belief yet do not represent the beauty, the love, the respect and non-judgemental that the faith demands.
Who are you talking about?
The Bible does NOT tell us to make judgement, damn and condemn others for NOT following God’s laws.
Right. Are saying I did that? Where?
The act of sin is abhorent to God…NOT the person, that is why we are all called to salvation.
Agreed. But again I can’t help but think you are accusing me here. What person did I abhor?
Protesting, attacking, threating, controlling others because they do not follow your thoughts and believes, do you not see that is contrary to “love thy neighbour” and “love one another as I have loved you”.
I certainly would; why would you think I wouldn’t?
Onefold – no one is saying you cannot voice your opinions or thoughts on topics, however, the act of judgement, the act of acting as God in judgement of others and acting a hateful way against your brethren, making up rules such as “unjust killing” to hide from the truth that is “though shall not commit murder”, that I believe, is misguided thought.
You are saying that I am judging others because I am NOT accusing them of being murderers? Isn’t it you that is Judging them as murderers? Please explain to me who I am acting hateful against.
By the reaction of the American people to an attack such as 911 and the calls for war against the perpetrators to kill them all women, men children everything doesnt that show you that they (the IRaqis etc) are reacting in the same way when their homes, famly and children are been destroyed on daily basis?
You are going to have to lay off the Kool-Aid. We did not declare war on any civilians anywhere at any time.
For example, please Onefold, tell me explain to me justify to me why someone like Rev. Pat Robertson’s Christian Coalition, and others like the Missipi based American Family Association and James Dobson’s Focus on the Family group came together to form and launch the Anti-homosexual network??? they are afraid that humanity doesnt want to kill and hurt gay people? As a Christian to a fellow Christian please explain to me how this type of behavious is conducive to attracting others into the faith? please explain to me how this is acting in a Godly manner? please explain to me how this example and others like radical dangerous anti-abortion groups are justified in the horrible things they do? please explain…
By your way of thinking we might as well through the Gospel away. Let’s not call sin, sin. We wouldn’t want to offend anyone, would we? Why do you think Christians should condone sin? That’s ludicrous. We are not called to attract sin into the church; we are called to be witnesses of God’s grace and truth. And by so doing attract others to repentance so that they might be saved. Rather than point the finger of judgment on those who commit crimes of hate, you would rather pass judgment on Christians for preaching the truth of the Gospel. That is really sad coming from a self-proclaimed Christian.
May 25, 2009 at 3:24 am |
Well Onefold, it is sad that you still remain a fan of defending your inconsistencies of the faith you so ardently seem to defend.
I guess by you evading the question in my last paragraph is proof enough that either 1) you agree with the kinds of organisations that act hatefully, that contradict some of the most important laws that God has given to us or 2) you cannot answer the question because it confronts you too much and rather attack in order to deflect.
I do agree with you that we should be an example to others, but the extremist and fundamentalists who violently pursue others for living how YOU want them to live is not right. It is wrong, it is anti-christian. And you if YOU cannot see that, the I am sorry for YOU.
Are you one of those christians who are always angry and preaching hell and sin left right and centre… appearing more unhappy than those who are not christian? Yeah that’s gonna draw a crowd.. because that is the root problem of why so many christians turn back on the religion or turn to other more outwardly peaceful religions. walking contradictions that are NOT giving true testiment to God’s grace and truth infact doing everything the opposite to drive peopl away from the faith.
I dislike the fact that by calling myself a christian and opening your eyes to the obvious errors of action of a lot so-calle devout christians, that you attack me because of how misguided you are.
as for saying that americans do not go in to attack civilians in countries..well reality is, whether you like it or not, YES they have and they have done so for decades, via economic means and political agendas putting governments in places that they think will be useful for them (USA) not because its beneficial to the other country. You need to probably brush up on your american political history before making statements that you cannot back up
I would suggest you read the historical background on how Saddam Hussein really came to power in Iraq (you should then send a thank you note to the administration that Bush Snr was party to while your at it), How the Saudi ROyal family was reinstated, the history behind the military dictatorships and right wing elitist parties in all of latin america came to power.. or maybe you wont, because then you will be going against everything you have been raised to believe.